September 24, 2008

Patience Is A Virtue, So They Say...

"First of all, that was a team effort Sunday - an equal opportunity disaster on offense. Second, it's way too early to render a verdict on the line. Consider that left guard Chris Kemoeatu was making just his second road start, against a very good defense.

Could we give him, oh, another quarter or two before we write him off?

Lastly, while it's true the Steelers haven't drafted an offensive lineman in the first two rounds since 2002, taking linemen high in the draft hardly is a prerequisite to winning Super Bowls.
Agree or disagree?

What say you?


tecmo said...

Who said this?

Cotter said...

I left it uncredited on purpose. But you can always Google it.

random asshole said...

I've always found it easier to run around, flailing my arms in a deep panic, than to utilize any sort of thoughtful analysis. That is, after all, why people comment on the internet.

If I wanted to be level-headed, I'd write for a newspaper. However, unlike the author you cite, I'd never work for the Trib (again, anyway).

Get Fresh Designs said...

I always thought higher of steelers fans, not to freak out after one loss, in which they could have taken the lead at anytime except in the last 3 minutes. It's one game, the Steelers are not going to go undefeated, they're going to lose and better to an NFC team in the regular season. Now if they lose the next 7, then bitch/complain/whine. It's a long season and many teams have to deal with injuries.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater said...

It's not the end of the world, yes. However, I'm sure a lot of us stiller fans felt a little too secure in the O-line. Two solid performances in the first 2 games...then that disaster Sunday.

It's very disappointing, but it is still early to turn things around. Let's hope they can?

Noah said...

I mean, perhaps we've bought into what the experts are saying too much. Houston and Cleveland were just Houston and Cleveland. We were a little too excited with our domination to clearly inferior teams. Granted, it is the beginning of the season and we were just glad football is here. So, now that that's overwith.

The line will continue to gel. We do have the toughest schedule in the league and I still think that will prepare for the weeks to come. I don't think we'll be as bad as that again this year. You can even quote me on that one.

Harvey Bars said...

No wonder Mendenhall keeps fumbling. He's got clunky, stupid, unathletic white people hands.

Cotter said...

random asshole ~ Nice work, as usual. I give you an A- on this one. It's good, but you could've talked more about trolling. I would've liked that. The internet is for angry people. Or so I hear.

doug ~ Indeed, my good man. And honestly, how many Defenses will we face like that? Of course, the answer is AT LEAST one - this coming Monday night.

dr. noisewater ~ Sure, why not? I don't see why they can't. But WILL they is the question? The other question is - why are these pretzels making me so thirsty?

noah ~ Sounds good. I will and have quoted you on that...I hope you're right!

harvey bars ~ Haha, the funny thing the stock photo I used, the dude actually is black. HE just has clunk, stupid, unathletic white people hands. Moral of this story - iStock needs to get more images of actual black people. What's that all about?

tobiathan think tomlin's a poser said...

I'm Ok with the O-line. I'm really not terribly worried about them. In fact, i think they'll be OK in a few weeks.

My maine reason for being so angry about last week has more to do with the pattern of inconsistency i've seen under Tomlin. It all seems so feast-or-famine under him. I wasn't a total Cowher-disciple, but i honestly DO NOT like the way Tomlin's handling this team.

I think, for reasons outlined in comments on an earlier post, that Tomlin is a paper-tiger and does not posess nearly the ability or talent his charisma implies. And i think SteelerNation will suffer for that for the next few years, until Tomlin has lost SO many close and/or important games he HAS to be fired.

For reasons unstated i think he's getting preferential treatment he has never earned. He is NOT Lovie Smith, Tony Dungy, Art Shell, Hermann Edwards or even Romeo Crennel. Tomlin doesn't have a fraction of the experience or credentials any of those coaches do.

Whisenhunt and Grimm were led to believe they'd have a fair shot at the head spot their entire tenures here, but never even had a chance at the job. I still don't get why we didn't pursue Mike Singletary. Or any of a number of other former player/coiaches who also fit Tomlin's "special qualifications" parameters.

Ultimately, i don't care anything about anyone's individual traits or history or "qualifications" as long as he is a good coach. Mike Tomlin hasn't won a tough game yet. Until he does i, personally, will see him as nothing more than a charity case.

I hope nobody ever told him coaching in Pittsburgh would be easy.

tecmo said...

Yikes..."charity case" is a bit extreme. Especially considering the "special qualifications" you outline.

What in Steelers history leads you to doubt a coaching decision made by the Rooneys? Were you one of the "fans" who wanted Wannstedt over Cowher to succeed Noll?

Prior to Cowher's Super Bowl win, he lost what, 80-90% of the AFC Championship games he made it to? If we look at the NFL like logical fans, the only "tough games" are the league championships and Super Bowl. Don't judge Tomlin by a loss in the 3rd week of his second season. Cowher's legacy was perpetually in doubt until he capped his career with XL. That was after many years of criticism.

Sean Payton dominated his rookie year as a coach and sucked balls in his second. I don't see Tomlin dropping off like that.

Art Shell, Herm Edwards and Romeo Crennel have no business being in the same line as Dungy and Smith (early Shell, maybe). I'd re-word that "charity case" comment before this turns into a race debate.

tobiathan doesn't like being bulied said...

Why, Tecmo, would this turn into a "race debate". My statements have everything to do with policies and nothing to do with ethnic legacy. Anyone turning this into a "race debate" is doing nothing but baiting and trolling. Gawd, but i get sick of PCers whipping out the race card every chance they get...

I seriously doubt that Cowher's legacy was "in doubt". It might have been somewhat arguable, but i don't think it was ever doubted that he was one of the great coaches.

And how about you, who chose such a combatitive attitude, explain to me how Tomlin ISN'T a charity case? What exactly in his CV earned him the reigns of a billion-dollar team? His "good attitude"? Ha.

If you don't "want" to agree with me that's fine, but don't even think about taking to the level of some point-for-point public debate about the merits or lack there-of of my *opinion*. I like you just fiine Tecmo, but don't come handing me a shit-sandwich: you won't like where it ends up.

Cowher won big games. A lot of them. You want to tell me he DIDN'T coach mediocre teams to AFC championships? He did more with less than any coach of his era.

As for comparing Dungy, Smith, Crennel, and Edwards: fact is they ARE peers, at least in a professional and personal-experience sense. And Art Shell won a SB. Huh. Is Tomlin anything like the coach those guys are? We don't know yet do we?

I don't like Tomlin. I don't like the circumstances under which he got the job. I don't know *exactly* what those circumstances are, but i have "my opinions". As do you, i can plainly see.

It's OK if we disagree, but definitely DO NOT presume to tell me what opinion to hold, or how to express it. I certainly wouldn't do it to you.

It's a free country, brutha, and i put my blood, sweat and tears into assuring that. I'm damned sure gonna exercise my right. And i hope you, and everyone else, do to.

Timmy B. said...

Hey Cotter, first time long time. I was actually at the game and I noticed that no halftime adjustments were made. I think the O-line suffered a setback on Sunday, but I also don't believe that it's time to go into panic mode. If anything this exposure to the O-line gives the Steelers to work on the weaknesses that were shown on Sunday. Every team in the NFL goes through a game like this. Plus it's tough to panic, when as bad as the Steelers played, they could've won that game deep into the fourth quarter.

tecmo said...

I'm not being combative or telling you what you should have opinions about. I'd rather debate than pretend everything's peachy keen with this team and trick myself into believing that.

But you clearly made a divide between Whisenhunt/Grimm and Tomlin/Shell/Edwards/Smith/Dungy, and likened Mike Singletary's "special qualifications" to the "charity case" that is Mike Tomlin. That's pretty black and white, pun intended if anyone wants it that way. There was no reason to bring up every other black head coach and assume everyone thinks of a comment like that as anything other than a race argument.

Shell won a SB as a player, that has nothing to do with his coaching experience. Crennel's legacy is in doubt seeing his failures as a head coach, Charlie Weis' bleak coaching resume and Spygate. Was that Belichick coaching staff really as good as we were led to believe? Herm Edwards is a lost case. Mike Tomlin won a Super Bowl as an assistant coach, then proceeded to coach the top ranked run defense in Minnesota. I fail to see how he's not qualified. Grimm and Whisenhunt had similar experiences, young assistants who got a ring in a well-coached regime...they were no more qualified than Tomlin.

Cowher's legacy was ALWAYS debated. "He's a great coach, but he's never won the big game." How many times did we as fans hear that? A lot more than we like to remember until he got his ring. Then we selectively forget all those critics.

Again, when have the Rooneys let the fans down in terms of personnel decisions, players or coaches?

I never said I had a problem with you or your opinions. But when your calling the hiring of a black coach over two white assistants a "charity case," especially with the Rooneys being the driving force behind that rule, it reads as a race argument. I don't see why else we'd need to bring up "special qualifications" and "charity case" in quotes when talking about a young minority coach.

I'm not hating...this is what a fucking comments section is for. I'm only saying what that comment reads like.

devil's advocate said...

But when your calling the hiring of a black coach over two white assistants a "charity case," especially with the Rooneys being the driving force behind that rule, it reads as a race argument.

There's the point! How would the Rooneys have looked had they not hired Tomlin? Considering they were the driving force behind the rule. Do as I say, not as I do?

tecmo said...

That's a weak excuse for an argument. I've done nothing but lay out facts, not speculation.

So, since the Rooneys created opportunities for minorities in the NFL, they HAD to hire a black head coach? And if they didn't, they'd be the laughingstock of the league? This crazy assumption does nothing to support any argument. How does this have anything to do with Tomlin's ability to coach?

Let me re-phrase the FACTS.

Tomlin was no less qualified than Whis and Grimm. All three had success and won rings as assistants on teams with fantastic head coaches. Why is it that Tomlin doesn't have the CV to be handed the "reigns of a billion-dollar team," but Grimm and Whis did? Please, I want to know the reasoning behind that.

Tomlin isn't a "charity case," just because the Rooneys created that rule. He was a successful assistant who came outta left field to head this team. Exactly how Cowher got the job.

There's the point! How would the Rooneys have looked had they not hired Tomlin? Considering they were the driving force behind the rule.

preceeded by:

My statements have everything to do with policies and nothing to do with ethnic legacy.

One of these things is not like the other...

Cotter said...

Gents, let me just mention a couple of things as this debate continues (and I hope it does because it's a good discussion)...

Combativeness aside (and this is a subjective judgment - having known Tecmo for a while I know this is just his way - not combative or bullying, but debating), Tecmo is right that it certainly seems like a racial argument.

Nevertheless, having also "known" Tobiathan for a while, I don't believe he meant it like that. Possibly he meant what devil's advocate pointed out. But I don't think he's saying anything derogatory racially. If I'm understanding him correctly, it seems that his main point is that he doesn't think Tomlin has what it takes to be a head coach.

On the flip side, you have to give him time. He may not have won "a big game" yet. But we're only three games into his 2nd year coaching. It's pretty hard to say that based on one season and three games, he'll never win a "big game."

Either way, timmy b makes the money point - even with Ben getting sacked on every other down, and the Offensive game plan stagnant, we were still in that game until the 4th quarter. That's gotta count for something. If things had gone just a bit differently, we might have even won.

Bottom line - it's one game, that right now, doesn't even really count that much. It wasn't a division game, we're not falling FAR behind in the division because of it, and maybe it's what we needed. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. What matters is how we handle it and where we go from here.

Sure, if the problems we all noted continue, that's cause for alarm. But right now, we just don't know what will happen. For all we know, the Steelers could run the table. Certainly doesn't seem likely. But again, as I'm accustomed to say - stranger things have happened.

Good debate gents, let's keep it going.

marc said...

I really think we're being a little tough on Tomlin. Like Cotter said, it's three games into his second season, he inherited a good team, albeit one with a horrid o-line. Lets give him some time to gel. Ben was a pro bowler last year.

tecmo said...


Which is what I'm saying. I don't understand the "special qualifications" and why the Rooneys HAD to hire a minority head coach to save face. Tomlin is a good coach, and his career as an assistant stacked up well with those of his competitors for the position, Whis and Grimm. I don't see why it was a "charity case." He's a good head coach who was hired for a reason. I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but the Rooneys have yet to let me down in coaching and player decisions.

marc said...

I agree. I think that Whis and Grimm would have been more of the same as Cowher and why not try something new, some fresh ideas. We pass the ball more now, because we finally have a bad ass top flight QB. Grimm was a run blocking specialist, why keep a guy that is almost exclusively a run blocker when you're going to pass more?
I like the clean slate that they have, no predetermined hate/love for any specific player

tobiathan said...

I had to take a day off, because i was getting pissed off at Tecmo. I'm still pissed, but not in a way that would prevent me from making my point.

I listed the other black head coaches in the league, TECMO, because they are Tomlin's "peers". Look the word up if you don't quite understand it;these are men who have had as nearly identical experiences as two different individuals are able. That they happen to be black is a *totally secondary issue*. DO NOT try to turn it into the PRIMARY issue, like some overly-apologetic suburban warrior for racial justice and equality. Cuz that ain't the point i'm making: this is NOT about black or white people.

This is about hiring the best-qualified professional football coach, and Mike effing Tomlin WAS NOT that guy. Yes: the policy that the Rooneys introduced is a race-based policy. Yes: i think the Rooneys felt it *necessary* to hire a head coach under the guidelines of this new policy. Yes: i think this decision automatically disqualified Whiz and Russ- who had been told for a few years that they would have *a fair shot at the job*. I DO NOT think they EVER had a "fair shot" at the job, but because of the policy and the political climate that created it; not because of black skin or white skin.

It is childish, ignorant, and in fact highly prejudicial to argue that Mike Tomlin DESERVED the job by mere virtue of being black. He only had 4 years coaching experience in major-league(big-school college and NFL) when he was handed the reigns of the Steelers. Four total years. He wasn't a legacy, like other footbal families ie. the Kiffins, or the Ryans, or the Nolans (some of who got jobs with less pro experience maybe because of family history).

Tomlin got this job because of a policy, and because of his charm, wit, (i assume) his football knowledge, and his plans for the team. If he *only* got the job because of ANY race-based policy, it IS racist, both ways(for good and bad). People won't move past racist feelings and ideas until EVERYONE plays on the same field, with the same rules.

Dropping the race card on the table is like pulling a gun in a fistfight. It automatically makes you "right" and anyone arguing against you "wrong". That's why i hate it- and the fact that the race card makes people all the more aware of the differences between living, breathing, red-bleeding human fucking beings. Dropping the race card in any discussion automatically cheapens the whole goddamned issue.

Mike Tomlin was underqualified for the job. He has lost several games he arguably should/could have won *with coaching accumen*. Perhaps, if we'd had a more experienced coach, BLACK OR FUCKING WHITE OR ORANGE, GREEN, OR FUCKING YELLOW, we would have won the games i list above. Or at least some of them.

And you are absolutely wrong about Cowher: his legacy, with 6 AFC Championship games, 2 victories, 1 SB win, was NEVER in doubt. Even before the championship. We can't discount the B, though: he DID win it. It's in the books.

Tomlin ain't done shit yet. I assert he ain't GONNA do shit. I say he's under-qualified, full of hot fucking air, and not nearly the coach he says he is. AND- i say he got the job because of a policy, not because of some in-born natural talent.

If you want to turn that into a statement of racial prejudice, Tecmo, go the fuck ahead. I hope it makes you feel yourself superior.

tecmo said...

I wasn't the one who brought up race. Calling Tomlin a "charity case" means "The Rooneys set up a policy of interviewing minorities, so Tomlin only got the job because they needed to put their rule into action." Explain what "special qualifications" means in comparing Tomlin to Singletary. "Singletary has been around football longer and he's black too, why not look at him?"

Again, all you're bringing is your OPINION. Go ahead and swear, use capital letters, write rambling paragraphs all you want, but you aren't looking at the FACTS. Tomlin is just as qualified as Russ Grimm and Ken Whisenhunt. And what have those two guys done in AZ so far? Can you really say Whis has done a better job with arguably the sickest WR corps and nicest-looking offense in the league?

Guys who don't have the right stuff don't just get handed assistant coaching positions on Super Bowl winning teams. You "assert" Tomlin won't do shit, do we have to make a law now that says he won't? Your logic doesn't run shit. The NFL doens't run on what one person thinks. You can have your opinion, but that doesn't make it fact. Tomlin has a .600%+ winning percentage, won the division, got his team to the playoffs and was one admittedly blown referee call from possibly advancing. And he has less than 20 regular season games coached. How can you honestly say that he won't do shit? What leads you to that assumption?

Do you honestly believe that the Rooneys are dumb enough to hire a minority coach as a way of staying in public favor because they initiated the minority applicant rule? They're a billion dollar mentioned that...I think they're above making topical decisions like that.

If you can't remember that Cowher was constantly criticized, then you're one of the fans who selectively forgets certain points merely because Cowher won a ring. Up until that point, every season would bring the same shit. "He's the longest tenured coach. He's a good coach, but his legacy will be overshadowed if he doesn't win a ring." It was every damn year! I got tired of hearing it.

It wasn't my intention to make this a race-based argument. My first comment was to say that your quip about the "special qualifications" making Tomlin into a "charity case" could come off as saying he only has the job because hes a minority. That's all. I write shit every day that can be viewed by anyone with a dial up connection, I have to proof everything I write to make sure I'm not coming off as insensitive to any race, religion, sex, creed, anything. My comment was only to say that your argument about "special qualifications" as it pertains to Singletary and "charity case" Tomlin could be seen solely as a race argument to others. If I wrote what you wrote, I'd have to spend an hour proofreading and editing to make it sound better.

As I said before, I don't hate you or your opinions, but getting physically pissed about someone calling you out is a bit extreme. Then you had to go talk shit and tell me I "won't like where it ends up." What the fuck is that? Its easy to talk shit anonymously over the internet, huh big guy? You gonna kick my ass or something?

tobiathan doesn't start shit... said...

"""won't like where it ends up." What the fuck is that? Its easy to talk shit anonymously over the internet, huh big guy? You gonna kick my ass or something?""

Lol. No- i'm not gonna "kick your ass". I graduated the third grade, Cletus. Did you?

I just meant you'd lose a battle of witty comebacks. I'm not gonna threaten you in any physical sense. I'm just going to make fun of you until your head explodes :-)

Do you feel all impressed with yourself by trying to turn my opinions into something they're not? Should i check with you before i post any more comments, so you don't get all indignant and accuse me of bigotry and race-hatred?

Are you the Designated Dickie Peterson, Cherub of Justice for OFTOT? Sorry...i must've missed the memo. Forgive, Oh Cherub?

Nope. You're just another asshole with an opinion. Just like me :-)

Tecmo, this thing hasn't *quite* gotten personal yet. You've made some mistakes in the tone and terminology of the way you addressed me. I've only responded to what felt like an attack by returning the sentiment in kind.

I suggest, for the sake of OFTOT and respect for Cotter, that we agree to drop this. I promise you it is a lot easier for me to provoke and insult you than it is for you to equally annoy me. Internet word-battles don't much phase me. I'm old flamewar vet, and i rarely lose. Or surrender.

And i'd never bother to try to translate any online rivalry into real-life violence. That's not only immoral, it's just stupid and wrong. I hope, for both our sakes, you are grown-up enough understand that. Big guy ;-)

domski43 said...

damn gents! i need a xanax after reading this conversation/novel

so guys, what is your views on abortion, religion, and politics?


(shot and a beer for both of you)

domski43 said...

sorry, "what are" (i'm a teacher)